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Author Topic: Proposed New Classes
Nitro Ned
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Posts: 154
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Post Proposed New Classes
on: January 3, 2017, 13:34
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Welcome to 2017
With the arrival of a new year I believe it is time to introduce some new classes to compete for in the fast electric facet of our organisation.
The issue of lack of appropriate classes came to light at the last 2 lap sprint meet when it was pointed out that even tho I had set a 6S SAW(Straight away 100M speed) record with my Whiplash 20 I could not claim it because my boat was 2 short for Q sport hydro. There is no class for Q hydro.
I asked Mr Electric (The electric Guru) about my Zippkits 20 FE rigger that I raced as a 4S and 5S boat in Aussie and what I could race that in here. His answer was it has to run in open hydro. That told me there is no point racing that here in NZ as it has to compete with 6,8,10,and 12S even for 2 lap or SAW records let alone circuit racing. That also goes for any electric out rigger( even a 7.2v 2S rigger)!!!
There are some good small rigger kits out now ideally suited for FE whether circuit or SAW racing. Zippkits are a good example. Cheap and easy to build and set up for 2S and 4S. The perfect start point for a beginner
When I got to Aussie and suffered withdrawal symptoms from model boating I needed something to built easy with limited building facilities as well as clean and easy to run so decided to give FE a go as a challenge.
Looked at what was available and what the yanks were doing and the JAE boat was popular both in a restricted 4S format as well as an open 4S class. So got one and had a blast with it in Perth.
I was basically told at Tauranga you need to get a bunch of people interested and running these boats then you can introduce that as a legit class in the NZMPBA.
I believe this line of thought is being viewed from a circuit racing mentality.
We now have 3 facets of competition in our organisation.
Circuit racing. SAW racing and also 2 lap Oval racing so our rules should give competitors opportunity to compete in all facets.
Since returning from Perth I note circuit racing is virtually nonexistent in NZ now unless you are racing Offshore or come to my regattas here in Blenheim or go to nationals (if they run at all)!
If I (or any South Islander ) wanted to do all rounds of the Offshore series for example it is going to cost us anywhere from $4000 to $6000+ for travel and accommodation
With that in mind a few of us have decided to pursue SAW and 2 lap racing to keep our interest in the sport.
We will shortly have electronic timing available for SAW and 2 lap timing so we can compare and compete for world records Thanks to the generosity of one of our members.( electronic timing is a requirement to be recognised)
With that in mind I think we should align ourselves with USA and Europe and run N2 P Q S and T electric classes in Mono Hydro and Cat
We would run Mono and sport offshore in each class
Hydro and Sport Hydro in each class
Tunnel and Sport tunnel in each class
Get rid of all open classes for SAW and 2 Lap oval as they will be covered with specific classes. That goes for Nitro and Petrol too.
Open should be a regatta specific class only where one can race anything if there is not enough entries to run the specific class he wants to run
Any way lets here some feedback on your thoughts

The Pres.

Sorry
Jedi
Posts: 178
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 3, 2017, 22:54
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I'm not into electrics and never will be. From what I can see there are more electric classes than anything else with the least amount of boats and racers. I think you might be struggling to get support, but then that is your choice. Off Shore is so popular because you are not racing one on one as the object is to accumulate laps. At the end of the day it comes down to consistency, just look at what Bruce Clarke did this year. He has set the standard for fellow boaters to either equal or beat him. He has set a very high standard which makes fellow boaters even keener to step up. This is why circuit racing including electrics is not favour of the month. Sorry for the negative comments about electric, but unfortunately that's the way it is. Cheers Sorry.

Mr-
Electric
Jedi
Posts: 129
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 6, 2017, 20:06
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Hi Nitro
I have been away for a few days and have just read this. While I see where you are coming from, and I would be happy to see more FE, there are a some pertinent points to consider.

1) Regarding your shot a Q hydro saw record, why did you not peruse the rule book and check whether your boat fit the class first. While you have the guts of the conversation I had with you about your rigger etc, I don't feel that you haven't represented it well. In respect to riggers, the situation has not changed since you went to Oz, and it is sort of surprising that you did not bother to peruse the rule book and build/run accordingly.

2) The 2013 and 2014 Nats open electric titles were won with 4s riggers.

3) N2 is largely an expensive waste of time, if you want to make N2 boats perform at top speeds, you will spend more, and burn up more gear than P.

4) Do we have the numbers to add more classes? My personal view is that we should be growing the classes we have. They are dollars and cents wise, a relatively equal or less spend to petrol boats and fast speeds can attained.I know from experience that it is possible to be competitive with gassers at club days. Going to larger boats and higher cell counts is a considerably greater spend (not that I am totally adverse to that myself, and if you want to build one you can still run open electric at Nats, which can be separated out if numbers permit for classes, it's in the rulebook).

5) Is it a good thing to go through again, someone wants more classes so we will make them, and then have no one running in them? Example being (some of) the P2 hydro classes. Bearing in mind that one of the main feedbacks to the committee in recent years has been "too many classes".

Like I said, I am not adverse to more FE but it should grow naturally. Within what is available class wise now it is possible to build and run boats that are capable of 60+ on the oval and 100mph plus on SAW. The issue of more classes just for records, is another one that needs discussion, but are they needed at this time? What is the motivation, does it help grow model boating overall in New Zealand, or just cater to a few individual wants? Will it make for more and better boating, or just divide it up further?
Personally I would rather see the existing classes built up and be competitive. Sport 45 hydros can be converted to Q, and 1/8 scales also, or new builds, and speeds of 60mph plus are achievable. Promoting and encouraging growth in the existing classes I believe is a better thing. But hey, what do I know....
Peter A.

Nitro Ned
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Posts: 154
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 12, 2017, 22:06
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As I indicated in the bold sentence half way down my initial post the 2 posts above have been posted with only circuit racing vision.

Brian I suggest you have a look back at the records section of the rule book at the chart of classes available (which is dam confusing I might add with duplicates listed) and also in conjunction with the restricted noise records I count 33 nitro classes, 37 if you include tether hydro. 21 petrol classes and 7 electric classes on the chart and 14 if you look at the records held. You will need to enlighten us as to where there are more electric classes than anything else.

I am not knocking the Offshore series I think it is a brilliant series as it is getting people racing. I merely was pointing out the cost are prohibitive for us South Islanders to compete all rounds. Hell I would join in as well if it was cost effective.

How many north Islanders crossed the ditch to my round of the Offshore series last year to support us down here? Diddly squatt! Why? Bet costs played a big part and as well missing 1 round won’t greatly affect the final results given most of you did the other 8 rounds in your Island.

And yes like you mention Bruce has set the bar and totally deserves the accolades for his results last year.

On a similar note a member of our association has officially run over 100kmh in A,B C2 and sport petrol hydro. C2 tunnel and also a 6S hydro. Also unofficially on GPS he has run over 100kmh in 1/8 scale hydro, P2 and P3 hydro, P2 Mono and P2 deep Vee. That’s 11 different Classes!!! And believe me he has got as much satisfaction doing that as what Bruce will have by winning the Offshore series.

For your information some of our classes have originated from speed trials and grown from there. Others have just remained as speed classes.

My first Nationals were here in Blenheim in 1977. They ran for 5 days and needed that to get through all the events eg Teather hydro, and straight running. Naviga triangle and 100m speed. also held as well, was mono and hydro matrix heat racing then we also ran 1 hour endurances in each engine class. With over 30 competitors it was a busy 5 days.

They ran 100m speed in the Taylor dam on about 180m of usable water. Local man and one of our pioneers Ron Loader set the all comers water speed record at 81.81kmh in that pond with a K&B 6.5 engine in a Hughey Hydro. I can remember several of us newbees looking at each other and saying bloody hell thats fast! How are we ever going to beat that.

This started a quest not only to be the first to break the 100kmh barrier but to be the fastest in other classes. There were regular speed runs on Lake Rotongaio in Taupo every couple of months which saw Peter Collier John and Malc Belworthy Nigel Wong and his Wong Dong hydro and Tony Rutledge up from Wellington. Alf Christian from Taranaki and his petrol Barry Jessop and Skip Francis from Rotorua, Carl Hansen and Archie and Kenny West from Whangarei not to mention Dallas(DAG) Gibson Craig Poppe and Richard Hamilton from Taupo.And me of course!!!

We would be out there at daylight set up the sight poles then all sorts of creations would appear from the cars. And it was simply classed as either a mono or deep Vee , a hydro or a tunnel and the engines fitted into the respective classes. And away we would go. Crates of beer would be storred in the lake to keep them cool and when the water got too rough we’d hook into the beer . Someone would do a lunch run to the shop and come back with pies and sammies and rolls. When the water went flat again late afternoon we were at it again till dark. We would go again at it Sunday morning till the water turned then everyone packed up and went home in time for work Monday morning.

K&B released the 3.5 outboard so Nigel turned up with one on an A Hydro in 1980 So the outboard classes were created there and then. Then Merve Sowden from Auckland turned up with one soon after. Again they were either a mono Deep-vee hydro or tunnel. Then K&B released the 6.5 outboard so the B class was created at the speed runs first by John Belworthy in 1982. Then K&B released the 7.5 inboard engine for the US B class. We were still sticking with the Europeans and 6.5cc for B class. Merve Sowden and Archie and Kenny fitted the 7.5 onto the 6.5 power head to run C class in 1983. In mono Deep vee and hydro. No Need for committee meeting or AGM’S to approve classes it was simple. If there was not a class for it we created one so long as it fitted the hull criteria and engine criteria in the rule book. We kept it simple.

Peter Collier claimed the honour of being the first to crack 100kmh with a C hydro in march 1981 at 102kmh using his own designed and built tuned pipe. He was first over 110kmh in May that year with 115kmh. Oamaru’s Bruce Watt first to 120 in August 82 and tony Rutledge first to 130 in 2001

In B Hydro DAG first to the ton with his DAG stick June 82 at 111kmh and August that year Barry Jessop ran 114 with a DAG stick and (turbulator) and his own designed and hand made pipe. Jan 83 Barry runs 120 then in the May runs 122kmh a record that still stands today in the restricted noise category.

A Hydro took a little longer and I can claim the honours of first to 100kmh with a best of 104 queens birthday weekend 1991. It was also my first ever run over 100kmh after over 10 years of trying. I had got to 99.8 with a K&B 7.5 hydro several times but that 100 was so elusive

It is my contention that electric should be treated exactly the same as nitro and petrol. Where you have classes that are regulated soley by hull type and voltage. Where by it is a mono, deep-vee hydro or tunnel. Then you have the battery voltage N2 P Q S T same as the USA and Europe. No restriction on hull length or size except for the sport or scale classes.

Generally for speed you run 1 hull size down for speed than what you would run for oval racing eg you run a B motor in an A hull, a C2 motor in a B hull etc. . Electric will be the same .SAW boats will be smaller than their circuit racing counterparts.

As I pointed out in a previous post regarding disabilities we have to deal with, we sometimes have to adapt to what we can do and not what we want to do.

Same goes with racing for us down here. We can’t get the circuit race events that you have in the north island so we are focusing on speed as we have the course and as I proved last year you can also run those boats round the 2 lap oval as well up at Tauranga. And claim records.

So let’s get these electric classes up and running for speed then we will have a better chance of growing something from that.

The Open classes have to go from record and 2 lap classes as every class we run will covered in our rules.
As I said above the open class should be a regatta only event

In Speed or 2 lap it is just another avenue For someone to gain presidents cup points out of something already covered in the rule book.A double Wammy as it were. The Open class will also always favor the bigger engine/voltage classes anyway so there is no incentive to build the smaller set ups for those that can't afford to the way the electric classes are at present

Nitro

Bigfishbob
Jedi
Posts: 278
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 15, 2017, 16:17
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My personal view is that after seeing 3 reviews of electric rules in the last 9 years, and still very little growth happening in the electric class competition, an additional class is unlikely to change anything for anybody. Perhaps we should just align our classes with our closest racing neighbour (Australia) and leave it at that?

We've watched Association membership plummet from just short of 100 a few years go, to 70 3 years ago and 50 for the last two years. What ever we do with classes should be encouraging more people into the fold. Just adding a class to suit the interests of those already here, is akin to re-setting the deck chairs on the Titanic.

We've got plenty of history of that having no effect with the addition of the petrol outrigger class a few years ago, the class didn't really get going. Then the changes in Petrol Hydro classes a couple of years ago co-incided with a significant downturn in Nationals Participation.

The bigger opportunity, based on the RC boating forums you see on Facebook (in particular) is the proliferation of the Hop-up brigade for Ready-to Run craft. Perhaps we should be looking at a "Run what you brung" class to get the RTR hop-up guys into boating? perhaps an unrestricted class that these guys can bring whatever they have and get into racing to get them in the door.

Mr-
Electric
Jedi
Posts: 129
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 15, 2017, 21:43
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Perhaps we should just align our classes with our closest racing neighbour (Australia) and leave it at that?

Not Such a silly idea, however for the most part I think that our existing class boats will fit the Aussie classes if anyone goes there to race or vice-versa.

The bigger opportunity, based on the RC boating forums you see on Facebook (in particular) is the proliferation of the Hop-up brigade for Ready-to Run craft. Perhaps we should be looking at a "Run what you brung" class to get the RTR hop-up guys into boating? perhaps an unrestricted class that these guys can bring whatever they have and get into racing to get them in the door.

Our existing classes are suitable for rtr/modded rtr's. They allow plenty of opportunity to start with an rtr stock or modded or a purpose build. The former N2 and P-ltd classes were based on the rtr market. We have some what more freedom to mod these boats now. Open electric events can cater for 'run what you brung'. Further than that it is up to individual clubs to build and encourage this, with NZMPBA support where needed.
The bigger/better move would be promotion of FE, as it is overshadowed and dominated by petrol. I have personally done my best to prove that FE boats are fast, exciting and competitive, even at club level against gassers! There have been some limitations with the supply of Lipos for FE, but Hobby Hanger in Hamilton are stocking some quality batteries, (of which I have purchased some and are using them) and other boats/parts etc are available through HobbyKing and OSE. There are also likely to be plenty of unused nitro boats out there that could be converted to electric.
At the end of the day, it needs the committee to help support local clubs, and the clubs to be active and enthusiastic to grow numbers. As I have said for a long time now, it has to start at the 'grass roots' level and build from there.

Nitro Ned
Administrator
Posts: 154
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 15, 2017, 21:57
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Again you are thinking with your circuit racing brain !!!!!
To encourage more people into the fold you have to offer them the racing oportunity to get involved. Which means clubs have to start offering heat racing events.
As I mentioned in my first post the only thing on offer at present is Offshore racing which has a great following and fine if you live in the North Island.
The reason there is no growth in electric is that what is on offer is too restrictive and no race events on offer. You have to race P and Q sport classes which are scale type boats and if you want to run a rigger it has to be open regardless of voltage.
However with speed events and the 2 lap oval it is you against the clock
We Have the best SAW water in the country here in Marlborough and some of us already have boats ready to go for Electric Speed in the classes i mentioned in my last post.
You have a certified oval course in Tauranga where we can take our boats up and race against the clock there.
The Open class in 2 lap and speed is b/s. for example just say i go and do 100+mph with a 10s hydro and set the open record. Where is the inscentive for someone to go and build say a zipkits rigger that runs 4S when he knows he has a fat chance of ever getting a record.
The petrol outrigger class never took off again because the rules are too restrictive. You can only run a 27cc engine and most now will choose to run a 28.5 or larger engine Hell I even do that in my Backlash. Ran 119kmh today with my 29.5 in that.
Bring back the KISS principle like we did back in the early days. Make the classes avaliable particularly the smaller electric classes then you might just drag some of the off road kids in coz they then can adapt their motors batteried and escs to boats
We are fostering the speed classses in our organisation down in Marlborough because we have the course and water to do it and speed is still an intergral part of our sport.

Bigfishbob
Jedi
Posts: 278
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 15, 2017, 22:12
Quote

Not necessarily circuit brained at all, the Hop-up RTR brigade seem more interested in the speeds they can get on the GPS's than going round and round racing.

A 27 cc engine will go as fast or faster than a 29.5 anyday...But no one has ever suggested changing the engine class for it. It's just a class that never seemed to attract any interest aside from the small group that proposed it.

I've always thought there should be an equal number of offshore events in both the North and South Island. It doesn't matter if the event dates conflict as long as there is an equal number in both islands. That's a whole nuther conversation.

Mr-
Electric
Jedi
Posts: 129
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 16, 2017, 08:18
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Nitro, while I, (and others probably) can see your point, the reality is that you are pushing your own barrow here. You could build sport hydros and chase the existing class records but you have chosen to build riggers (that do not have specific classes) and now want classes to suit your own purpose. Essentially dividing up further an even smaller group instead of building on what is already there. You keep saying there are "some of us", how many is some exactly? C'mon as President you need to be focused on what builds model boating as a whole in New Zealand not just your own personal bent. By all means build your local club, make something there, have your own club classes/speed records, make it happen in practical ways. Question, if you just build and run SAW boats down there, will the members then support other events? In particular the Nats? I ask because boats set up for SAW are not the same as boats set up for ovals. If you intend to set up a measured oval course in your area, why would you then only do 2-laps and not oval racing? Are you really looking at the bigger picture here?
Please don't get upset at me for the questioning, like I have said, I am all for more FE, but it needs to be done in respect to improving model boat racing in NZ. There is already plenty of scope with what we have to set and break existing records. It is a lot bigger challenge to get a 4 or 6s boat to 80-90 mph than a rigger. How about trying to break the existing open electric hydro record with a 4s boat? It can be done. If not, then try some thing a little bigger. How about cracking the 100 mph with an electric boat? 110 mph. There is plenty there for bragging rights as things are.

Sorry
Jedi
Posts: 178
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Post Re: Proposed New Classes
on: January 16, 2017, 21:49
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Well said Peter, I couldn't agree more. Nitro, I think I might of used the wrong word when I said classes, is what I meant to say was engine classes/specifics. There are four petrol engine classes P1, P2, P3 & PX, that is only four specific engine sizes or classes or whatever you want to call them. When it comes to electric the list seems to go on & on. Why try and re-invent the wheel when we have a falling membership, wouldn't we be better off to get rid of half the classes and modified engines etc and get back to basics. I personally believe and this is my own thoughts not anyone elses and that is that modified engines have ruined the sport/hobby as they have driven the enthusiasts away because they couldn't compete. I was originally against the P1 class in Petrol mainly because it was a specific type of motor, but now I fully support it and this is where someone can compete on a level playing field. To get more people involved in the sport/hobby this is what we should be pushing, otherwise you will end racing against yourself.

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